Rear wheel wobble?

[mpp1]

Hi All,
A query for all the Int650 long term owners out there.
I bought mine last year in May with 10,000 kms on it here in India.
During the test ride i didn't really feel any vibes or wobbles at either end and the deal was good so I grabbed the bike.
Since then over time I've noticed that the bike has developed a tendency to step out of line at the rear wheel, especially at low speeds. I've had the rim trued at two different RE service centres but they haven't been able to fix the issue.
Now for members who haven't ridden in the urban traffic of a large Indian city, it's a very different experience where there is so much 2 and 4 wheel traffic all around you fighting for every inch of road, in these conditions the heft of the Int650 with the 210kg weight, it's really a nerve wrecking way to travel.
Even on the highway at speed upwards of 60kmph and especially with the notorious road conditions with lateral ruts, the rear wheel really makes me feel like it's going to swing right from underneath me.
My question is has anybody else felt this behaviour with the rear wheels? Especially my fellow Indians. The bike is still on the original Pirellis with still about 40% tread depth available and has done less than 11,000kms.
Please share any information and any solution to this weird problem of mine.
TIA.

 

[Dabrakeman]

The only thing I have noticed relative to my previous bikes is that the stock 650 seems to be more sensitive to rain grooving on concrete road surfaces as well as more sensitive during low speed cornering to crack sealant lines in pavement. Once I figured this out and realized it was not something "loose" in the bike it didn't bother me anymore.

 

[Dabrakeman]

Hi All,
A query for all the Int650 long term owners out there.
I bought mine last year in May with 10,000 kms on it here in India.
During the test ride i didn't really feel any vibes or wobbles at either end and the deal was good so I grabbed the bike.
Since then over time I've noticed that the bike has developed a tendency to step out of line at the rear wheel, especially at low speeds. I've had the rim trued at two different RE service centres but they haven't been able to fix the issue.
Now for members who haven't ridden in the urban traffic of a large Indian city, it's a very different experience where there is so much 2 and 4 wheel traffic all around you fighting for every inch of road, in these conditions the heft of the Int650 with the 210kg weight, it's really a nerve wrecking way to travel.
Even on the highway at speed upwards of 60kmph and especially with the notorious road conditions with lateral ruts, the rear wheel really makes me feel like it's going to swing right from underneath me.
My question is has anybody else felt this behaviour with the rear wheels? Especially my fellow Indians. The bike is still on the original Pirellis with still about 40% tread depth available and has done less than 11,000kms.
Please share any information and any solution to this weird problem of mine.
TIA.

Does your rear wheel actually not run true when inspected on the center stand? (setup a guide close to the tire edge and view from the back while rotating the tire). Axle nuts are tight? Spokes tight?

 

[mpp1]

There is a marked swing either way of about half an inch. RE tech assured me that that's normal on a spoked wheel. Spokes were tightened and axle was removed to take out the wheel so I don't think that would be the issue. That feeling of losing the balance of the bike right from under me has basically made me so paranoid as to ride the bike for less than 700kms in the 15 months I've owned it. In fact it's become such an issue that I've put it for sale online

 

[Dabrakeman]

There is nothing normal about a 1/2" lateral runout in a wheel. Couple mm at most at the rim. Maybe someone else here knows the exact specs for the RE. Either the wheel bearing is bad or the wheel itself. With the bike on centerstand can you grab the wheel at two points 180degrees apart and tell if you can either twist the wheel laterally or move it side to side laterally (without tipping the bike off its stand)? If there is any perceptible motion the bearing is probably bad. IF the wheel feels solid in these tests then it is probably the wheel itself. Some adjustment can be made tightening and loosening appropriate spokes but 1/2" seem like way too much to me. If outside the range of spoke adjustment and not the bearing then the wheel itself must be bent (not sure how that would happen outside of an accident).

 

[mpp1]

I'll check the play on the rear wheel at the service station tomorrow although RE tech said the wheel is fine but I've grown to find their opinion a little lacking in truth

 

[Alan F.]

I agree that 1/2" or nearly 13mm is an incredibly large amount of lateral runout, please make a personal note not to use that mechanic again.

If you have the tools, skills and a friend with an INT or a GT perhaps they'd allow you to swap their rear wheel onto your bike as a test?
Perhaps a used replacement rear wheel might be available nearby?

Another potential cause would be your swingarm pivot. Put the bike up on the main stand and remove the lower shock absorber bolts, pivot the shocks up to the rear, from behind the bike grasp the rear wheel and check for any perceptible lateral movement in the swingarm pivot, there should be none.

Also to verify rear wheel axle adjusters are parallel, measure from rear axle center to swingarm pivot center on both sides of your bike. If this measurement is not the same at both sides of the bike, your rear wheel centerline may not be aligned with the centerline of the bike and front wheel.

Another tip after that is to find a length of string about 9 feet or 3 meters long, with your bike on the center stand tie one end to a rear wheel spoke and run the string across the back of the rear tire, turn the rear wheel so that your string is below the axle and continue to run the string foreward, straighten the front steering and hold the string in a corresponding position at the front of the front tire below the axle center. If your front and rear wheels are aligned the string will touch both edges of the rear tire, at the front the string may have a slight angle toward the center of the bike as the front tire is a bit narrower than the rear tire. The string should not point strangely far to the left or right as this would indicate a disparity in front to rear wheel center alignment.

 

[Robert]

Another tip would be to check the tire. A damaged carcas will not be visible when standing still, but at speed the movement of the bike may cause the tire to sway, like the feeling that you experience.
With Alan, try to swap the wheel to fnid if it is in the rearwheel of your own bike, then start looking at the above mentioned options.

 

[Alan F.]

Ooh! Another issue could be that the tire bead has not seated completely to the rim all the way around on both sides. Visually inspect the circumference of your rear tire where it meets the rim on both sides.

Question, was that 13mm runout seen on the rim or on the tire?
You may be able to measure very little runout at the rim but a larger amount at the tire. This could be remedied by removing the tire and tube for a good visual inspection followed by replacement if deemed necessary.

 

[tom_d]

It would be helpful if there was a video of you showing the runout you seeing on your bike. Just putting it on the center stand and turning it by hand, perhaps with a fixed point to provide a side to side reference in the screen.
Basically, while spoked rims do flex, need maintenance, and generally are not "perfect" as they are not cast in their final form, their normal variations while doing their job don't explain your experience. A tire which has a bulge, possibly from damage, does. A qualified tech in person is the better judge, but as far as cause and effect, an imperfect tire whose state is deteriorating tracks better than the fault being with the wheel/axel/suspension especially if a couple of technicians have already inspected it for issues. Could a video of what you see be posted?

 

[mpp1]

All excellent observations and inputs, much appreciated.
The service center wanted to dump the bike on me today but I'm going to tell them to hang on to it for a couple more days and I'm going to go there and practically see for myself all the pointers given by you guys. Thanks.

 

[mpp1]

Forgot to mention that when I was there yesterday I made them give me a test ride on another customer's Int650, I know this is going to ruffle some feathers on the North American audience, but I guess this is pretty normal in India. On this other bike as well there were demonstrably more rear wheel movement so I'm thinking maybe the Indian Int650 can not handle the Indian road conditions as well as some other countries with almost perfect riding roads. Interesting as this other bike had more than 27.5k Kms on it compared to mine which has 10.9k

 

[Alan F.]

Seems like you need to find someone who can true a spoked wheel.

When I'm out riding and I see a dirt road or a trail, I'm not shy about taking my completely stock 650 there. I've seen plenty of videos from India showing what this bike is capable of. I'm never going to come close to the regular, every day abuse these bikes take in other parts of the world.

But if needed I can true my own wheels. It's a skill I highly recommend cultivating.

 

[Cpt.Sparkles]

Sounds like a bearing.
Pull the wheel and stick your finger in each side. (pull the sprocket carrier off the cush rubbers)
Turn the bearing with your finger. It should not feel gritty and there should be no sideways movement in it.

 

[Laserman]

I would inspect the cush rubber, it might be worn out. Another thing that can cause that is a worn out bearing in the wheel, had a riquimbili do that to me awhile back.

Replace the cush rubber and/or the bearings, make sure wheel is inline with the rest of the bike, and it should fix the issue.

 

[tom_d]

Forgot to mention that when I was there yesterday I made them give me a test ride on another customer's Int650, I know this is going to ruffle some feathers on the North American audience, but I guess this is pretty normal in India. On this other bike as well there were demonstrably more rear wheel movement so I'm thinking maybe the Indian Int650 can not handle the Indian road conditions as well as some other countries with almost perfect riding roads. Interesting as this other bike had more than 27.5k Kms on it compared to mine which has 10.9k

Is it possible you are looking for and finding a sensation which is reinforcing a heightened sense of alarm you are experiencing in the situation? These things can be self-reinforcing and feedback into themselves, part of why some thoughts can be hard to shake as they basically they move into our lower brain/body functions and cannot be reasoned with, much like PSTD. Just from your reported experience, this sensation has caused such discomfort to the point you are not riding the bike for fear of the rear wheel moving wildly from its expected behavior, something that a good technician, especially multiple of them from different shops if you have tried, should be able to detect if they ride and inspect it.
Inferring from your experience that perhaps the new 650 twins are not well adapted to the rougher Indian roads and perhaps other countries can't see the issue on perfectly smooth roads may also add support you are experiencing an unusual but subjective experience and unknowingly rationalizing why the technicians are not finding a mechanical cause. All things being equal, perfectly smooth new pavement should actually amplify imperfections at the wheels and tires as the normal road perfections usually raise the noise floor to the point that small imperfections on the bike are usually hidden.
If multiple technicians have looked multiple times for a cause of your experience and come up empty, and then you have ridden another 650 twin and have again experienced the same issue then perhaps you are indeed unique in experiencing this issue which is causing you increasing alarm which is limiting your enjoyment of the bike. If new tires of a type you consider superior don't improve or at least change the situation and no one else can confirm your experience and technician's cannot find a mechanical source or validate the issue exists, perhaps this particular bike model will not serve you well. Do you or have you owned any other bikes recently? Are they free of this issue, and if so what model is it?

 

[Alan F.]

Is it possible you are looking for and finding a sensation which is reinforcing a heightened sense of alarm you are experiencing in the situation? These things can be self-reinforcing and feedback into themselves, part of why some thoughts can be hard to shake as they basically they move into our lower brain/body functions and cannot be reasoned with, much like PSTD. Just from your reported experience, this sensation has caused such discomfort to the point you are not riding the bike for fear of the rear wheel moving wildly from its expected behavior, something that a good technician, especially multiple of them from different shops if you have tried, should be able to detect if they ride and inspect it.
Inferring from your experience that perhaps the new 650 twins are not well adapted to the rougher Indian roads and perhaps other countries can't see the issue on perfectly smooth roads may also add support you are experiencing an unusual but subjective experience and unknowingly rationalizing why the technicians are not finding a mechanical cause. All things being equal, perfectly smooth new pavement should actually amplify imperfections at the wheels and tires as the normal road perfections usually raise the noise floor to the point that small imperfections on the bike are usually hidden.
If multiple technicians have looked multiple times for a cause of your experience and come up empty, and then you have ridden another 650 twin and have again experienced the same issue then perhaps you are indeed unique in experiencing this issue which is causing you increasing alarm which is limiting your enjoyment of the bike. If new tires of a type you consider superior don't improve or at least change the situation and no one else can confirm your experience and technician's cannot find a mechanical source or validate the issue exists, perhaps this particular bike model will not serve you well. Do you or have you owned any other bikes recently? Are they free of this issue, and if so what model is it?

This is exactly why I learned to work on motorcycles for myself.
I believe we are all best served by having the understanding and ability to work on our own bikes.

Your mechanics may be ignoring a genuine issue because it's too much trouble to fix, or there just isn't enough money in it. Many among us in the States are having such problems with RE Dealerships.

Your problem could be as simple as a drive chain adjusted too tight, or a failed crush drive or bearing, or a failed swingarm bushing or an out of true wheel. Unfortunately it could also be a combination of small issues. We are with you and can help diagnose and coach you during repair. One step at a time.

 

[mpp1]

Is it possible you are looking for and finding a sensation which is reinforcing a heightened sense of alarm you are experiencing in the situation? These things can be self-reinforcing and feedback into themselves, part of why some thoughts can be hard to shake as they basically they move into our lower brain/body functions and cannot be reasoned with, much like PSTD. Just from your reported experience, this sensation has caused such discomfort to the point you are not riding the bike for fear of the rear wheel moving wildly from its expected behavior, something that a good technician, especially multiple of them from different shops if you have tried, should be able to detect if they ride and inspect it.
Inferring from your experience that perhaps the new 650 twins are not well adapted to the rougher Indian roads and perhaps other countries can't see the issue on perfectly smooth roads may also add support you are experiencing an unusual but subjective experience and unknowingly rationalizing why the technicians are not finding a mechanical cause. All things being equal, perfectly smooth new pavement should actually amplify imperfections at the wheels and tires as the normal road perfections usually raise the noise floor to the point that small imperfections on the bike are usually hidden.
If multiple technicians have looked multiple times for a cause of your experience and come up empty, and then you have ridden another 650 twin and have again experienced the same issue then perhaps you are indeed unique in experiencing this issue which is causing you increasing alarm which is limiting your enjoyment of the bike. If new tires of a type you consider superior don't improve or at least change the situation and no one else can confirm your experience and technician's cannot find a mechanical source or validate the issue exists, perhaps this particular bike model will not serve you well. Do you or have you owned any other bikes recently? Are they free of this issue, and if so what model is it?

Truth be told the other bike i rode was much worse for wear. It had some other issues as well, India being a price sensitivity market a lot of people skimp on spending money on upkeep which might be the issue with my test ride bike.

 

[Alan F.]

Yes I think poor motorcycle maintenance is common the world over for economic reasons. This leads to a need for motorcycle manufacturers to over-engineer things to compensate. For instance I understand that the RE650 was in development as a 750 but released as a 650? That implies these engines can have a very long life.
Personally I've noticed that the short side stand was likely the result of designining these bikes for 17 inch wheels. Some have swapped to 17s and the side stand lean angle is much more correct. 18 inch wheels are sure to handle the rougher terrain and harsh roads better.

 

[mpp1]

Update.
Went to the service station yesterday as they had called me to pick up the bike, seems there was a comm breakdown and the bike wasn't ready.
Anyway took a test ride and pleasantly majority of the wobble was gone on the original tyres, so good news.
However the manager told me he's still going to send out the rear wheel to another shop for them to check out the spoke health and the trueness of the rim so thankful for that.
keeping my fingers crossed.